KCBS experienced competitive Teams a question

[bbally]

Since getting placed in the lower one tenth of my third competition I have been looking at the KCBS website and looking at the placings of teams and the scores from the comps on my barbeque.

Since the TASTE SCORE is multiplied by 2.28 this score is the one I keyed on for this research which led to my questions.

The judges video does not mention a style or taste profile of barbeque.

However, the cluster of winning teams, no matter the region they travel too, combined with the weighting system giving a preference to the TASTE SCORE that mathmatically cannot be overcome using the other two categories does indicate that a specific style and taste is being keyed on for the higher scores?



So when you look at the weighted scores, it becomes obvious that mathmatically taste is all that counts to be competitive. (While the other scores do count they only come into play for those whom nailed the taste category. Nines in presentation and tenderness are wiped out by a 7 in taste.)



When analyzing the results of teams in placings the clustering of a normal distribution indicates (knowing that the tasting is blind) that "some how" a specific taste profile is being looked at as preferred, based on the cross region success by competitive teams?

Anyway looking at the judges scores it appears that average and above average scores are given out regularly, however to get to the 8 and 9 category it appears one style of barbeque is being keyed on for the taste category allowing for the clustering of consistant winning teams?

What say you?

[Fourthwind]

The problem we face as competitors is that we have to try to cook to their mostly untrained BBQ taste buds. The only thing they are trained on is texture and appearance. The taste is purly subjective. At the last few comps I was at, the guys that were winning had better balances of sweet and heat. Those who lost still had great tasting product for me, but when you give it to my wife or kids their first reaction was "too spicy" I have been working hard since last season to create recipes with better balances. I use my daughter as a judge. If she chews the food to the bone, I know it's right!

[Richtee]

To me, most winning entries seem to lean to the sweeter style sauces... with the possible exception of the brisket. This I applaud, as brisket should taste like brisket, not a smoky lolly-pop. A light coat of thinned sauce using the cooking juices is what we typically use. Also on the pork entry...

And yeah...heat is another factor. Seems there has to be a little heat...

Now, as you go more south, they may be looking for a bit of a sour/zing factor. I like that style myself... just not as sweet ;{)

I would love to be able to turn in dry ribs, but I fear that would doom the entry... sigh.

Chicken...well, that's probably the one area where you do have some freedom. But By God, get that skin DONE! Any "rubber skin" will affect the texture score, and the taste I bet.

[Whisky Fish]

When I went down to SoCal to watch Kell and Ryan's comp. I had a chance to go around and taste what the winning teams from our previous Comp, were doing. I think that even though it's a blind tasting, there are favorites. I think if there are consistant flavor profiles between the different entry categories, ie. brisket ribs PP chicken, it becomes a signature flavor, in which case popularity of the contestant might play a role. I'm not saying it's rigged because there is always the dark horse that comes out of nowhere with a great product and tilts the scale back. It's not a sour grapes thing because there is always a disadvantage to be the visiting team. Just gives me more reason to do better next time. I won't take anything away from the winners, gotta say, they put out some good Q.

[IrishChef]

From everything I have read and heard, it does seem that there is an archetypical "flavor profile" that most judges feel a winning entry needs. Sweet and Heat, seems to be the standard. I am very curious to wonder why that is, and how that became the "definitive" flavor profile for most winning entries? IS it just a trend? Or is it the standard from here on out, and should be taught as such in Judging classes?

[Whisky Fish]

From everything I have read and heard, it does seem that there is an archetypical "flavor profile" that most judges feel a winning entry needs. Sweet and Heat, seems to be the standard. I am very curious to wonder why that is, and how that became the "definitive" flavor profile for most winning entries? IS it just a trend? Or is it the standard from here on out, and should be taught as such in Judging classes?

As Rich alluded to, it depends on where you are geographically, I've heard the guys that travel a lot change profiles from region to region. I guess in Atlanta you've gotta have a white sauce in your arsenal or you're sunk. Don't know if that's true or not.

[Fourthwind]

Hard to say about the trend thing. I think most folks are just brought up on resteraunt style sweet Q and thats what they expect. Every comp is different. One of the events that I attended last year, the winning rib was a raspberry glazed rib. Defiantely didnt fit the flavor profile that you would expect in Q.

[Capt Dan]

IMO, most comp teams can cook great BBQ. That will get you a 6 or 7 on taste. But if you can make the taste buds of the judge, notice your flavors in a positive way, then when it is compared to others at the table(entries), you will get the 8's and 9's. Tenderness and appearance are scored less, but can make or break your score. Every thousandth of a point can be critical in a tight finish.

As competitors, we are at the mercy of the judges , the elements, and our team mates/ competition. It takes the total package to be consistent. Unlike many other contests or sports, a team with an excellent product and knowledge can win these events with small , and inexpensive smokers, a canopy, and the necessary tools and safety items. It is rare, but possible. That's why I enjoy the sport. It is hard work. The people that we meet and connect with are a huge part of my passion for the events.

If teams were tight lipped, selfish, secluded or rude. I would never ever consider competing. The " human factor" involved with the sport is what makes it so popular. The same factor in judging make it difficult to become a" shoe in".

As in everyday life, Greed and Ego can be a monster. It is always best to avoid both at all costs.

[bbally]

If teams were tight lipped, selfish, secluded or rude. I would never ever consider competing. The " human factor" involved with the sport is what makes it so popular. The same factor in judging make it difficult to become a" shoe in".

As in everyday life, Greed and Ego can be a monster. It is always best to avoid both at all costs.

I agree on both points Dan.

I really have enjoyed the three I have been to so far. And have met great people and continue to have a lot of fun. However, I want to modify what I do if icky sticky sweet is always going to win or be necessary to win. I am Meat, Smoke, and Spice only person. If icky sticky sweet is a requirement to win, then I want to start to enter just people's choice so I can cook and get people's feedback and the specials like anything butt, chili, etc. Since they are not pigeoned holed into a specific type of food. Long shots yes, but level playing field. Looking at my performance on the four competition meats, it appears you must change to icky sticky sweet or be banished to the bottom of the placings?

I started with KCBS because it said Master Barbeque Judges, which to me means judges that recognize a genre and have the skills to place it against the genre's standard. However looking at the performance and going around to taste the higher placing barbeque at three events now, it appears that Kansas style barbeque is a must to do well. With the exception of brisket (did ninth place one time) which appears to be judged Texas Style (Meat, Smoke, Spice).

I am not complaining, I am just trying to figure out if I am getting my genre judged against other genre or if we have a specific target hole we have to throw the ball through to get points?

If the latter is the case, then what we really have here is a specific targeted sauce on meat judging contest. And I say that because the "Taste" is multiplied by two hundred twenty eight percent in the score. Making it the only part that counts to place in the competition. The presentation and the tenderness only seperate the placings for the people that figure out the targeted taste.

Since the same teams win in all different regions, it appears that there is a taste profile that wins.

Is that taught to judges?

How else could a team consistantly win across regional preferences. Unless teams have a Memphis style barbeque, a North Carolina Style Barbeque, a Texas style barbeque, a southwest style barbeque a Kansas style barbeque winning recipe for each region?

If not then somehow icky sticky sweet with heat is being learned by the KCBS judge some how?

Anyway, taking nothing away from winning teams, I have tasted it and though not my style of barbeque they are making a great product.

I am just trying to figure out if I go and sign up for just chicken so I can get a space, and then do my People's Choice and specials categories? Or will a KCBS judge have the intellect to judge different genre of barbeque against other genre? Or is it just icky sticky sweet with heat?

People are great at all of them I have been too..... and I would keep going to drink beer and feed people and have fun with other teams, but I can use the entry money to make more food for people rather then piss it down a hole if Meat, Smoke, Spice is never going to have a chance.

[bbally]

Hard to say about the trend thing. I think most folks are just brought up on resteraunt style sweet Q and thats what they expect. Every comp is different. One of the events that I attended last year, the winning rib was a raspberry glazed rib. Defiantely didnt fit the flavor profile that you would expect in Q.

I agree there are the occasional outlier looking at the results on the KCBS website. But when you plot the data, the fact remains teams figure something out and it enables them to win in multiple regions with all the regional differences. This would indicate that one particular style of barbeque has been adopted by KCBS judges as "the one that places" and once you hit that (in all likelihood from what I have tasted) sauce you start to score high.

Which brings me back to the whole master barbeque judge thing. Are they masters of barbeque and understand all genre, or are they a master at picking out a particular sauce profile and be damned the meat, spice and smoke.

Again, what have tasted at three events seems to indicate a preference for icky sticky sweet with some heat. Which indicates the deal is really a saucing contest, with the exception of brisket. (although the last two tastings that seems to be getting to a beef bullion pumping contest more then a brisket contest)

Anyway, not complaining, just deciding how I best participate in the future, no reason to throw money away on entries if my genre is not in vogue, I would rather go enjoy the teams commadry and use the entry money to feed more people a taste.

[Mikey]

Which brings me back to the whole master barbeque judge thing. Are they masters of barbeque and understand all genre, or are they a master at picking out a particular sauce profile and be damned the meat, spice and smoke?

Again, what have tasted at three events seems to indicate a preference for icky sticky sweet with some heat. Which indicates the deal is really a saucing contest, with the exception of brisket. (although the last two tastings that seems to be getting to a beef bullion pumping contest more then a brisket contest)

[Fourthwind]

THe whole master judges thing cracks me up. I would say a third of the judges at most contests took the judges class that week of the contest. I am planning on taking the class myself this year, just to confirm everything I heard from friends that have taken the class. I do believe that consistancy is the key, and every guy I have ever talked to on a consitent team told me to "cook for the judges" and nothing more. I hope to make a few of them turn their collective heads this year, but if I don't, I really wont be dissapointed, because I too love the company at these events. Fantastic groups of folks to spend time with!

[Rich Parker]

When i took my CBJ class, Mike Lake taught us to score on the product in hand regardless if it was prepared or seasoned like we would personally.

Meaning if someone handed in a really sweet rib, and you personally don't like sweet ribs judge the rib as if you did like sweet ribs. So if you hand in a dry rib it should be judged on how good it is regardless if it is sweet or not.

I don't think many cooks change their flavor profiles when they travel around the country.

Good food is good food and will always win.

[Richtee]

When i took my CBJ class, Mike Lake taught us to score on the product in hand regardless if it was prepared or seasoned like we would personally.

He taught my class as well... and I DO try to follow that advice.

But if a tangy, less sweet rib came in... I'd in some way like it more... perhaps even less tender.

[Rich Parker]

He taught my class as well... and I DO try to follow that advice.

But if a tangy, less sweet rib came in... I'd in some way like it more... perhaps even less tender.

It is a human nature to lean towards your personal preference but as long as you try to partial, i personally think you are a good judge.