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  • Sous Vide & smoking ??

    Alright y'all,
    I've been watching all the Sous Vide posts here and you have my curiosity peaking. Thanks Allot. Checking out different sources online is also confirming your results too. While I have too many med bills to jump in right now with a full on Sous Vide Supreme and dont have the knowledge or patience to do a controller ala Squib, I have read a number of people are using a Johnston Controls model A419 ($69 on Amazon) with a crock pot or roaster to get very good results on the cheap. I may pursue this approach for the short term.

    My questions are;
    1. Have you incorporated SV cooking with smoking? After all the site is Smoked-Meat.com and I love the smoked flavor profile too. Maybe cold smoking prior to SV cooking?

    2. Have you heard of anyone going cheap with a controller like the J.C. A419 and a roaster? I know it isnt quite as precise as a SV unit, but are there any critical differences?? From all I have read, much of the appeal and ease of SV cooking is the time doesnt have to be super precise to get great results, but what about temp precision? I've read the JC unit will keep the water consistently within 1-2 degrees of set temps.

    3. Finally, do regular Food Saver bags hold up well to SV or do the need to be dedicated SV bags? I would think the low heat levels wouldnt matter with Food Saver brand bags.

    I'm really thinking of taking the El Cheapo approach to get me feet wet. Hey, Foot Bath too?? And if I get hooked, we all know how that goes, I'll be plopping down me hard earned cash on a better unit as finances allow.
    Mike
    Proud to be I.B.E.W.

    PCa Sucks - But I WILL, No DID beat this!!

    Yoder YS640
    POS ChinaMasterbuilt XL (demoted to cold smoking duty)
    Bull Big Bahanga gas grill


    Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
    My questions are;
    1. Have you incorporated SV cooking with smoking? After all the site is Smoked-Meat.com and I love the smoked flavor profile too. Maybe cold smoking prior to SV cooking?
    ...
    3. Finally, do regular Food Saver bags hold up well to SV or do the need to be dedicated SV bags? I would think the low heat levels wouldnt matter with Food Saver brand bags.
    Re #1: Cold/cool smoking is next on my list. I plan to use just the AMNTS (tube smoker) in a kettle. I figure about 60-90 minutes of smoke should be plenty. Then chill, season, suck-vac, cook SV and sear!

    Re #3: FS bags are fine, as long as you get a good seal. There really is no such thing as a dedicated SV bag (there are dedicated chamber vac sealer bags; different story). You can even use Ziploc bags. Just put your food in a gallon ziploc bag, leave the bag unzipped, submerge the bag (except for the zip closure; the water will displace the air in the bag), and clip the zip top (no need to zip) to your SV water container.
    Yoder YS640, Weber Performer Platinum, Weber OTG, Weber Q220, Traeger BBQ125 Executive
    ThunderDome Vortex, Smokenator 1000, GrillGrates, A-Maze-N Tube Smoker (6" & 12")
    Weed Dragon Torch with Squeeze Valve (VT2-23SVC), Looftlighter, BernzOmatic High Intensity Torch Head (TS8000)
    Tappecue, Maverick ET-732 (x2), Maverick PT-100

    SousVide Supreme, VacMaster VP112 (chamber), VacMaster Pro305 (suction)

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks Oz.
      I figured Q3 was as much marketing as anything. Sous Vide Supreme sells bags and sealers too, but I couldn't see anything that set them apart from other vacuum bags, other than maybe on the 48-72 hr long SV cooks. I did read about some people using ziplock bags, but they seemed to be a very small minority and most people used vacuum sealed bags.

      Keep us posted on Cold smoking prior to SV cooking too.
      Mike
      Proud to be I.B.E.W.

      PCa Sucks - But I WILL, No DID beat this!!

      Yoder YS640
      POS ChinaMasterbuilt XL (demoted to cold smoking duty)
      Bull Big Bahanga gas grill


      Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

      Comment


      • #4
        I have a feeling...will check it out... if you use a big zippie you can get a pretty good water/plastic/food contact area without drawing a vac on it. then they hang the 'seal" over the side of the bath...
        In God I trust- All others pay cash...
        Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
        Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

        Comment


        • #5
          There really is no such thing as a dedicated SV bag (there are dedicated chamber vac sealer bags; different story). You can even use Ziploc bags. Just put your food in a gallon ziploc bag, leave the bag unzipped, submerge the bag (except for the zip closure; the water will displace the air in the bag), and clip the zip top (no need to zip) to your SV water container.
          Yes you can get proper sous vide bags, the difference is that they are rated for higher temperatures than standard vacseal bags.

          Basically as long as you don't go over 160 ordinary bags are fine.

          And rich is right - you need the skintight wrap of a vacumn seal - just popping food into a plastic bag won't work.
          You'll get uneven temperature transfer which could be dodgy - bacteria wise.

          Ziplock bags - as far as I know - are not certified for use at anything much higher than room temperature. Not sure how safe, chemical wise, they would be.

          I'm not saying you can't do it - but personally I probably wouldn't without doing a lot more research into the thermal chemical stability of the bags involved.
          Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
          Just call me 'One Grind'



          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
            My questions are;
            1. Have you incorporated SV cooking with smoking? After all the site is Smoked-Meat.com and I love the smoked flavor profile too. Maybe cold smoking prior to SV cooking?
            Yes I have done brisket, butt and chicken and finished in the smoker (post to follow....someday), with great results. Very tasty, only drawback, if it is one, no smoke ring with smoking after Sous Vide.

            Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
            2. Have you heard of anyone going cheap with a controller like the J.C. A419 and a roaster? I know it isnt quite as precise as a SV unit, but are there any critical differences?? From all I have read, much of the appeal and ease of SV cooking is the time doesnt have to be super precise to get great results, but what about temp precision? I've read the JC unit will keep the water consistently within 1-2 degrees of set temps.
            I researched that method before buying my first circulator, some of what I read scared my away from that. The temperature is pretty critical. Some bad results from food not evenly cooked. As far as cost, if your bide you time on e-bay, you can get a bad ass commercial unit for not much more than a crock pot, controller and a circulation pump. I now have three, only paid $35 for the Fisher Scientific Waterbath, $80 for the Fisher Scientific circulator.

            Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
            3. Finally, do regular Food Saver bags hold up well to SV or do the need to be dedicated SV bags? I would think the low heat levels wouldnt matter with Food Saver brand bags.
            I have had trouble with FS bags coming unsealed in simmering water, will not use them again. As has been suggested, I guess you could clip the top to the side (baggie).

            Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
            I'm really thinking of taking the El Cheapo approach to get me feet wet. Hey, Foot Bath too?? And if I get hooked, we all know how that goes, I'll be plopping down me hard earned cash on a better unit as finances allow.
            Folks do it with success, just don't crowd the bags and make sure you are getting even heating.

            Alex may have a point about the chemical stability of Baggies in a heat situation. They are really intended for cold storage, but I don't know for sure.

            I have used Lisa's vac bags at 185°for 24 hours with no problems.
            Last edited by Mark R; 03-18-2014, 02:16 PM.
            Mark
            sigpic


            "Likes smokey old pool rooms, clear mountain mornins. Little warm puppies, children and girls of the night"?
            Smoked-Meat Certified Sausage Head!

            Comment


            • #7
              Haven't had a problem so far with FS bags... they seem to work perfectly.

              Now, as far as the smoking/sous vide combination. Here's my thought, albeit I have not tried this yet.

              I want to do a brisket. I want a smoke ring. I want bark. I'm thinking doing the up front smoke as I normally do, to the point where I am happy with the bark... prolly 165-ish IT, vacuum suck it and plop it in the SV for a 195 bath...


              Drinks well with others



              ~ P4 ~

              Comment


              • #8
                standard info on the bags I use.

                almost all external suction vacuum sealers require embossed (or sometimes called channelled, textured or ribbed) pouches, i.e. a crisscrossing effect in pouch to allow the appliance to work properly. We supply 20 or more sizes of embossed vacuum pouch all made from a transparent polyamide (PA) air impenetrable exterior and a polyethylene (PE) food approved interior. These pouches are remarkably resistant, do not allow oxygen to penetrate and guarantee excellent sealing results. Our pouches are suitable for sous vide cooking up to 70° C.
                They also sell a high temp bag for anything higher than 70 (158).

                They hi-temp bags are certified for up to 20 minutes at 120 (248)
                They're primarily for boil in the bag foods.

                One other thing to mention - my last box of gallon ziplock bags, about half had seriously tiny pinprick holes in one corner of the bag.
                basically had no clue untill they'd been sitting in the fridge for a few hours and had started to leak.
                Another reason I'd not use them in a sous vide setup. They are not guarenteed to be air or water tight.
                Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
                Just call me 'One Grind'



                Comment


                • #9
                  I think I fergot to mention, I had good bark on both the brisket and the butt. smoked at 200-225° for 2ish hours. Just no smoke ring, the protein is already cooked.
                  Mark
                  sigpic


                  "Likes smokey old pool rooms, clear mountain mornins. Little warm puppies, children and girls of the night"?
                  Smoked-Meat Certified Sausage Head!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by curious aardvark View Post
                    standard info on the bags I use.



                    They also sell a high temp bag for anything higher than 70 (158).

                    They hi-temp bags are certified for up to 20 minutes at 120 (248)
                    They're primarily for boil in the bag foods.

                    One other thing to mention - my last box of gallon ziplock bags, about half had seriously tiny pinprick holes in one corner of the bag.
                    basically had no clue untill they'd been sitting in the fridge for a few hours and had started to leak.
                    Another reason I'd not use them in a sous vide setup. They are not guarenteed to be air or water tight.
                    Yes, don't use ziplock bags... they fail, even under refrigeration as Alex said. Unfortunately, I found oot the hard way...


                    Drinks well with others



                    ~ P4 ~

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
                      Alright y'all,
                      I've been watching all the Sous Vide posts here and you have my curiosity peaking. Thanks Allot. Checking out different sources online is also confirming your results too. While I have too many med bills to jump in right now with a full on Sous Vide Supreme and dont have the knowledge or patience to do a controller ala Squib, I have read a number of people are using a Johnston Controls model A419 ($69 on Amazon) with a crock pot or roaster to get very good results on the cheap. I may pursue this approach for the short term. That's all you need
                      Your best bet with a controller of that type would be with a rice cooker or coffee Urn. A roaster or crock pot works but you may get more overshoot on temps.
                      Make sure the controller is in Fahrenheit not Celsius as this will give you better control.
                      A circulator may be needed as well, 10.00 aquarium pump but will melt at 170° so that leaves out veggies.
                      Some folks use fish tank air pumps and hoes with no air stone.



                      My questions are;
                      1. Have you incorporated SV cooking with smoking? After all the site is Smoked-Meat.com and I love the smoked flavor profile too. Maybe cold smoking prior to SV cooking?

                      Yes Mad hunky wings Sous Vide, Smoked and Fried.


                      Will be doing a brisket/Pastrami
                      Cold smoked at 150° for 6 hours, Sou Vide at 140° for 48 hours and will keep you posted.


                      2. Have you heard of anyone going cheap with a controller like the J.C. A419 and a roaster? I know it isnt quite as precise as a SV unit, but are there any critical differences?? From all I have read, much of the appeal and ease of SV cooking is the time doesnt have to be super precise to get great results, but what about temp precision? I've read the JC unit will keep the water consistently within 1-2 degrees of set temps. This is fine for most cooks

                      Temp precision is important somewhat, if you get a 3° swing this is ok for LT-LT cooks and somewhat Ok for steaks for example if you set your low limit one degree below your preset value, the temps will never get below that, however depending on your temperature controllers ability to handle overshoots, and different appliances will vary in these overshoots.
                      If you want to get into crazy egg stuff, you need to be exact.


                      3. Finally, do regular Food Saver bags hold up well to SV or do the need to be dedicated SV bags? I would think the low heat levels wouldnt matter with Food Saver brand bags.

                      Regular food saver bags work just fine.
                      From Vacuum Sealers Unlimited


                      Our bags feature a heavy-duty 3 ml thick material that is optimal for keeping your food fresh and freezer-burn free up to five times longer. And the best part is that our Premium bags and rolls are completely compatible with all Food Saver and Seal a Meal suction vacuum sealing machines! You can boil, freeze, microwave and reuse any of our bags and rolls.

                      I'm really thinking of taking the El Cheapo approach to get me feet wet. Hey, Foot Bath too?? And if I get hooked, we all know how that goes, I'll be plopping down me hard earned cash on a better unit as finances allow.
                      That's exactly what I did, and I was instantly hooked as you will be.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        If you can wire an outlet you can build one as cheap as $20.00, however my temp swing on this was 3.7°, like I said before, it will never go below the low limit set.
                        This works great for foods that must be above 130° within 6 hours (don't quote me on that)
                        and if you are doing some steaks, you can use the swing as a guide to figure your max temperature, so say you want the machine to go no higher than 132°, factoring in your swing, you can set your low limit to 128 degrees and the carry over heat (swing) will bring you up to approximately 131.7° it worked for me but if you know me I always have to tinker.





                        Controller $16.97 Free Ship

                        You can put the controller in anything like a Tupperware container or PVC box, just hack some wire off an old vacuum cleaner from the trash, use an old outlet or buy one for $3.00.
                        However this unit has limits.
                        Last edited by SQWIB; 03-18-2014, 03:05 PM. Reason: edit temp from 140 - 130 within 6 hours

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thanks to all of you SV connoisseurs. Great feedback from personal experience is always welcome. Im watching the craigslist and ebay for used deals and the Fisher Scientific brand is one I hadn't heard of. Do you search under water baths for other brands that aren't necessarily designed to be Sous Vide cookers? What brands should I look for besides Haake, Sous Vide Supreme, Fisher?

                          Good info on vac bags, especially for the heigher temp & longer cooks. As for ziplocks, I have had them leak just marinating in the fridge, so I never really considered using them. Seems like their quality has fallen off big time. I have a Foodsaver now and stocked up on rolls a while back, but if I need to do longer/higher cooks, I should pick up a roll of better quality bags. Thanks for the source, Squib.

                          The research continues....
                          Mike
                          Proud to be I.B.E.W.

                          PCa Sucks - But I WILL, No DID beat this!!

                          Yoder YS640
                          POS ChinaMasterbuilt XL (demoted to cold smoking duty)
                          Bull Big Bahanga gas grill


                          Of all the things I've ever lost, I miss my mind the most!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
                            Thanks to all of you SV connoisseurs. Great feedback from personal experience is always welcome. Im watching the craigslist and ebay for used deals and the Fisher Scientific brand is one I hadn't heard of. Do you search under water baths for other brands that aren't necessarily designed to be Sous Vide cookers? What brands should I look for besides Haake, Sous Vide Supreme, Fisher?

                            Good info on vac bags, especially for the heigher temp & longer cooks. As for ziplocks, I have had them leak just marinating in the fridge, so I never really considered using them. Seems like their quality has fallen off big time. I have a Foodsaver now and stocked up on rolls a while back, but if I need to do longer/higher cooks, I should pick up a roll of better quality bags. Thanks for the source, Squib.

                            The research continues....
                            • Try Immersion Circulators
                            • Immersion Heaters (more so for the element alone)
                            • Immersion Circulator Heaters
                            • Lab Circulators


                            Here's what I use for bags, I get the premium bags. been fine up to 185° and I use these bags for Backpacking (dehydrated foods reheated in boiling water)
                            They are a sponsor on another forum and offer 10% discount coupons monthly, shipping is high so I suggest ordering in bulk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Otis857 View Post
                              Thanks to all of you SV connoisseurs. Great feedback from personal experience is always welcome. Im watching the craigslist and ebay for used deals and the Fisher Scientific brand is one I hadn't heard of. Do you search under water baths for other brands that aren't necessarily designed to be Sous Vide cookers? What brands should I look for besides Haake, Sous Vide Supreme, Fisher?

                              Good info on vac bags, especially for the heigher temp & longer cooks. As for ziplocks, I have had them leak just marinating in the fridge, so I never really considered using them. Seems like their quality has fallen off big time. I have a Foodsaver now and stocked up on rolls a while back, but if I need to do longer/higher cooks, I should pick up a roll of better quality bags. Thanks for the source, Squib.

                              The research continues....
                              Polyscience is another good brand. As far as a search goes, just do sous vide... there are immersible circulators, and there are baths. Pick what you want and can afford.


                              Drinks well with others



                              ~ P4 ~

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