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  • A serious SV question...Help me to understand...

    OK guys...I'm not trying to stir up any shit here...Just trying to understand...
    How can we vac seal a hunk of beef and then put it in 130 degree water for 24-48 hours...What happened to the 40-140 in 4 hours rule? What happened to when in doubt, throw it out?
    I mean if that same hunk of beef sat in a 130 degree car for 4 hours we would throw it in the trash without thinking twice...But in a hot tub we can do 48 hours and call it safe?????
    I was describing the SV method to a friend...One who hasn't been inundated with food safety guidance like we have here, and her first words were "How can that be safe?"

    So I'm open to input here...Not bashing nothing...Just trying to figure it out...
    Craig
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  • #2
    The critical temp for the bad bugs is 130°. In SV the meat is entirely covered or surrounded in the cooking medium, not just one side. So it cooks evenly. The bad bugs are exposed to that temp more evenly also and killed more rapidly. This is for whole meat only, as it is only the surface of the meat you are worried about. Ground meat is a different story, requires more heat.
    The time and temp tables for C. Bot and other bad bugs are relatively the same. They all seem to kick the bucket at about the same time and temp exposure. It takes roughly 4 hours for the buds to start creating toxins on the surface of the meat. So as long as you kill them within the four hours all is well.

    Here are the fsis tables for salmonella lethality. The beginning of the paper explains the reason for the difference in time and temp rules. The old 40 to 140 in 4 still applies to cooking in air.
    http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/con...df?MOD=AJPERES
    Mark
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    "Likes smokey old pool rooms, clear mountain mornins. Little warm puppies, children and girls of the night"?
    Smoked-Meat Certified Sausage Head!

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    • #3
      all i know is that the London Broil went in the tub yesterday and is happily awaiting Coppertop!
      Sunset Eagle Aviation
      https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sunse...888015?fref=ts <... We sure could use some likes!

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      • #4
        It’s a Time Vs.Temp thing here Craig. And a sealed environment. Sure..Sal takes 165 hit INSTANTANEOUSLY to kill..but 145 and 30 mins will do it in too... YOU can survive maybe 140 degrees for a half hour...but...
        In God I trust- All others pay cash...
        Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
        Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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        • #5
          What Mark and Rich said. I've been doing this for a couple of years, and have not killed anyone yet. And I'm still here to type aboot it.


          Drinks well with others



          ~ P4 ~

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          • #6
            pretty much what others have said......the big 3 that will getcha are salmonella, listeria and e.colli......they pretty much start to die off just under 130 so 130 is the starting point for SV (my recommendation). the key is to reduce the amount of pathogens to an acceptable tolerance for consumption. listeria is the most heat tolerant but it takes more to make you sick.
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            it's all good my friend..........

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            • #7
              Originally posted by chefrob View Post
              pretty much what others have said......the big 3 that will getcha are salmonella, listeria and e.colli......they pretty much start to die off just under 130 so 130 is the starting point for SV (my recommendation). the key is to reduce the amount of pathogens to an acceptable tolerance for consumption. listeria is the most heat tolerant but it takes more to make you sick.
              I am usually at 131 to 134... safe.


              Drinks well with others



              ~ P4 ~

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              • #8
                Originally posted by chefrob View Post
                pretty much what others have said......the big 3 that will getcha are salmonella, listeria and e.colli......they pretty much start to die off just under 130 so 130 is the starting point for SV (my recommendation). the key is to reduce the amount of pathogens to an acceptable tolerance for consumption. listeria is the most heat tolerant but it takes more to make you sick.

                Listeria is a badddd bugger!
                The other thing I fergot to mention, water is about 8X more dense than air. So it transfers heat much more efficiently (quickly).
                Mark
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                "Likes smokey old pool rooms, clear mountain mornins. Little warm puppies, children and girls of the night"?
                Smoked-Meat Certified Sausage Head!

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                • #9
                  this helped me brain a bit better...
                  https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/what-is-sous-vide
                  Sunset Eagle Aviation
                  https://www.facebook.com/pages/Sunse...888015?fref=ts <... We sure could use some likes!

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mark R View Post
                    The other thing I fergot to mention, water is about 8X more dense than air. :
                    Shame we cant use IC’s skull for a vessel eh?
                    In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                    Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                    Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by HawgHeaven View Post
                      What Mark and Rich said. I've been doing this for a couple of years, and have not killed anyone yet. And I'm still here to type aboot it.
                      With that statement I made jerky for two decades without cure but y'all told me I was crazy...I never made anybody sick
                      Craig
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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by SMOKE FREAK View Post
                        With that statement I made jerky for two decades without cure but y'all told me I was crazy...I never made anybody sick
                        I knew that was coming. Well..I can’t argue with that other than you should embrace modern science. Like you did with jerky.
                        In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                        Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                        Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                        • #13
                          Well I appreciate the informative responses...Used correctly, safety isn't an issue...See I really wasn't trying to stir the pot...But I still don't see this as a possibility in my kitchen...
                          Craig
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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by SMOKE FREAK View Post
                            Well I appreciate the informative responses...Used correctly, safety isn't an issue...See I really wasn't trying to stir the pot...But I still don't see this as a possibility in my kitchen...
                            And that’s fine. But I notice you never miss a SV thread either
                            In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                            Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                            Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by SMOKE FREAK View Post
                              With that statement I made jerky for two decades without cure but y'all told me I was crazy...I never made anybody sick
                              You live in a much cooler and less humid climate. The Crackers here have always used SP or #1. Folks have died from C.Bot without it.
                              Mark
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                              "Likes smokey old pool rooms, clear mountain mornins. Little warm puppies, children and girls of the night"?
                              Smoked-Meat Certified Sausage Head!

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