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  • #16
    Originally posted by ljw70 View Post
    Why isn't sodium nitrite needed for smoking brisket or pulled pork over long periods of time at low temperatures???? I never see any recipes requiring this.
    Typically the surface temp of these meats... FULL MUSCLE MEATS... is easily over 140°F within a couple hours...much less 4.

    and since you have not injected it, or inserted a thermo probe before this... right? () There is nil risk of C.Bot or most any other pathogen INSIDE the meat.

    Obviously.. the game changes with ground meat. What with it's outsides inside and all.
    In God I trust- All others pay cash...
    Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
    Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Richtee View Post
      Typically the surface temp of these meats... FULL MUSCLE MEATS... is easily over 140°F within a couple hours...much less 4.

      and since you have not injected it, or inserted a thermo probe before this... right? () There is nil risk of C.Bot or most any other pathogen INSIDE the meat.

      Obviously.. the game changes with ground meat. What with it's outsides inside and all.
      Wouldn't the same principle apply with ground meat stuffed into a natural hog casing or collagen casing? Doesn't the casing heat up to 140F very quickly, thereby minimizing the risk of C.Bot inside? Plus, the cooking time on a smoked link (let's say a Brat or Kielbasa) is much less than the cooking time on a 12 hour pork butt.......
      I'm not debating, just trying to understand before I venture off into the brisket/pulled pork world.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by ljw70 View Post
        Wouldn't the same principle apply with ground meat stuffed into a natural hog casing or collagen casing? Doesn't the casing heat up to 140F very quickly, thereby minimizing the risk of C.Bot inside? Plus, the cooking time on a smoked link (let's say a Brat or Kielbasa) is much less than the cooking time on a 12 hour pork butt.......
        I'm not debating, just trying to understand before I venture off into the brisket/pulled pork world.
        Nitrite wouldn't be needed if you were going to smoke the sausage at 230*, like Brisket, or if you were grilling it on a hot grill.
        The nitrite is needed for low & slow smoking, as in hours & hours at temps between 80* and 180*.
        Rich could give you a better answer, but that's the first thing that came to my mind.

        Bear
        Vietnam Vet---9th Inf. Div. Mekong Delta (1969)
        Easy to follow Step By Steps: Pulled Cured Boston Butt Ham and Buckboard Bacon--Smoked Salmon-- Bacon-On-A-Stick--Bacon (Extra Smokey)--Boneless Cured & Smoked Pork Chops & CB--Canadian Bacon & Dried Beef--Ham Twins (Double Smoked)--Double Smoked Hams X 4--Bear Logs (All Beef--Unstuffed)--Smoked Bear Loaf (All Beef-Mild Hot)--Prime Rib (My Best ever)--Another Prime Rib--Chucky (Pulled Beef)--Twin Chuckies--Pork and Beef Spares--Rare Beef (for Sammies)--Raspberry Chiffon Pie---


        Mom & 4 Cub litter---Potter County, PA:

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        • #19
          Originally posted by ljw70 View Post
          Wouldn't the same principle apply with ground meat stuffed into a natural hog casing or collagen casing? Doesn't the casing heat up to 140F very quickly, thereby minimizing the risk of C.Bot inside? Plus, the cooking time on a smoked link (let's say a Brat or Kielbasa) is much less than the cooking time on a 12 hour pork butt.......
          I'm not debating, just trying to understand before I venture off into the brisket/pulled pork world.
          Well... you are bringing the whole THING up above 140 in the case of sausage... quickly. you are talking hot smoking/grilling. No need to cure fresh sausage grilled/smoked hot. BTW..there are other hazards in ground meat..so make sure..unless cured..you bring them to 165 internal.

          Other styles of sausage are cold/cool smoked for hours, indeed hams, bacon, etc... all needing cure.
          In God I trust- All others pay cash...
          Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
          Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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          • #20
            I'm still a bit confused.... Been reading a lot tonight and it seems to be general consensus that smoking sausage hot or cold should be cured. Guess it is just a precautionary thing for hot smoking and maybe has something to do with the additional risks of ground meat. On the flip side it sounds like the solid muscle meats (butts, briskets, ribs) are generally safe from needing cure due to the "protection" offered by the quick cooking of the outside layer of the meat. The confusing part is that botulism thrives between 40-140 F ---- yet we are to cure hot smoked sausage that spends the least amount of time at that temperature but not butts or brisket which spend mush longer times at that temp. Bacon and hams are more logical-- cure required because of long, low temp cold smoking.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by ljw70 View Post
              I'm still a bit confused.... Been reading a lot tonight and it seems to be general consensus that smoking sausage hot or cold should be cured. Guess it is just a precautionary thing for hot smoking and maybe has something to do with the additional risks of ground meat. On the flip side it sounds like the solid muscle meats (butts, briskets, ribs) are generally safe from needing cure due to the "protection" offered by the quick cooking of the outside layer of the meat. The confusing part is that botulism thrives between 40-140 F ---- yet we are to cure hot smoked sausage that spends the least amount of time at that temperature but not butts or brisket which spend mush longer times at that temp. Bacon and hams are more logical-- cure required because of long, low temp cold smoking.
              yep you are definitely confused.

              okay. solid muscle meat - as long as it's been kept at proper temperature - is extremely unlikely to have any serious internal contamination. The most important contamination area is the surface of the meat. And that gets hot enough to kill bacteria very quickly.

              With Ground meat products all the surface bacteria are mixed thoroughly throughout the meat when you grind and mix. So the cure is required to kill and inhibit their growth.

              It's not botulism that's the main baddy here. Botulism is caused by an anerobic bacteria that secretes the worlds most potent naturally occuring toxin (it also secretes hydrogen sulphide - so is extremely easy to detect). It's only really ever going to be an issue in totally sealed items like canned fish or canned meat that hasn't been heat treated properly. ie: oxygen kills botulinin bacteria as does heat. Botulism is the least of your worries.

              Hot smoking fresh sausage is not actually a problem. As long as it's hot smoking (250+) and doesn't take much over an hour or two - bacteria are killed before they get the chance to form large colonies.

              It does depend on the size of the sausage - ordinary grilling size sausage is fine to hotsmoke uncured. But the larger summer sausage type, should always be cured - regardles of hot or cold smoking. Just too much risk that the core will stay 'warm' for too long.

              Cold smoking sausage is a different matter - all the meat will be in the danger area all the time. So cure it, no other sensible option.

              Long term slow cooking of ground meat products, will always produce a significant risk bacteria wise. So adding cure to the mix is simply common sense. It might not be strictly necessary - but why take the potential risk with the health of your friends and family.

              Another thing to bear in mind is that smoking itself cures the outer layer of the thing being smoked - the pink 'smoke ring' is actually a layer of cured meat produced by the action of nitric oxide in the smoke.

              So hot smoked solid muscle meats are double protected without requiring curing.

              A simple rule of thumb - any hot smoked sausage that's going to take more than 2 hours to reach 160 internal - needs to be cured. No if's or buts - cure it.
              This leaves you plenty of scope for smoking smaller diameter sausage for a bbq - but makes sure larger sausages like summer sausage types are cured.

              Now this might seem to indicate that things like fatties and meatloaf should always be cured. But smoked at 250+ a typical fatty or meatloaf will usually cook in under 2 hours anyway.
              Last edited by curious aardvark; 01-08-2014, 06:45 AM.
              Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
              Just call me 'One Grind'



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              • #22
                Excellent - thanks!

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                • #23
                  [QUOTE=curious aardvark;472865]
                  It's not botulism that's the main baddy here.

                  QUOTE]

                  So what is the "baddy"?

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                  • #24
                    [QUOTE=ljw70;472930]
                    Originally posted by curious aardvark View Post
                    It's not botulism that's the main baddy here.

                    QUOTE]

                    So what is the "baddy"?
                    E-coli, listeria, salmonella...etc... plenty of them out there.
                    In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                    Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                    Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                    • #25
                      [QUOTE=Richtee;472950]
                      Originally posted by ljw70 View Post

                      E-coli, listeria, salmonella...etc... plenty of them out there.
                      It is generally agreed upon that sodium nitrite is not considered effective for controlling gram-negative enteric pathogens such as Salmonella and Escherichia coli

                      http://www.meatscience.org/SodiumNitriteReview.aspx

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                      • #26
                        [QUOTE=ljw70;472979]
                        Originally posted by Richtee View Post

                        It is generally agreed upon that sodium nitrite is not considered effective for controlling gram-negative enteric pathogens such as Salmonella and Escherichia coli

                        http://www.meatscience.org/SodiumNitriteReview.aspx
                        Dint mean to infer that it was. But processing any meat correctly is..IE temps, time to temp and final temps. All part of the equation.

                        You asked. We provided.
                        In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                        Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                        Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                        • #27
                          Got it, thanks for all the info. :-)

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                          • #28
                            [QUOTE=ljw70;472979]
                            Originally posted by Richtee View Post

                            It is generally agreed upon that sodium nitrite is not considered effective for controlling gram-negative enteric pathogens such as Salmonella and Escherichia coli

                            http://www.meatscience.org/SodiumNitriteReview.aspx
                            these are mainly bacteria passed to other people by personal contamination. Also common on badly washed salads, cheeses etc.

                            And yes nitrite will control them to a certain extent as it effects proteins as well as haemoglobin.

                            But like rich says - common sense, hygiene and temperature control are the best weapons against this kind of bacteria.

                            Let's put it this way: if you wash your hands properly before and after handling food - you are massively less likely to suffer food poisoning or cause it in someone else.

                            There is no one single magic bullet.

                            Cure helps - certainly, but then so does reducing the active water content (aw) of the product by drying, cooking also kills bacteria, salt content also reduces bacterial growth by reducing the AW.

                            AW is the water in a product available to bacteria - reduce it and you reduce bacterial growth.
                            Then you've got the acidity of the product.
                            NON-toxic Bacteria in salami produce lactic acid that not only chemically effects the proteins (almost 'cooking' it) but also lowers the ph of the sausage, preventing acid sensitive bacteria from growing.

                            There are a whole slew of factors and processes that are used to make charcuterie safe to eat. And they are techniques that have been used for thousands of years - admittedly our ancestors did not know why they worked - but they did know what to do to preserve their food.

                            Today we are learning more and more about charcuterie on a molecular level.

                            200 years ago you'd use unrefined salt to cure your meat and it would work. Today it still works, but we know WHY and we know how to emphasise the beneficial aspects of the process and reduce the non-effective ones.

                            The summary from the paper you linked to:
                            Executive Summary
                            Curing with nitrite has been used, essentially, for thousands of years to produce safe and nutritious products and to effectively preserve meat. Since the controversies about the safety of nitrite that started in the mid-20th century, much has been learned about nitrite and heme chemistry and the overall metabolism of nitrogen oxides in humans.
                            Curing practices in the meat and poultry industries have been adjusted using the knowledge obtained about nitrosamine risks. The ongoing research focused on the metabolism of nitric oxide, nitrite, and nitrate appears to reaffirm the safety and benefits of current curing practices.
                            The challenge to meat scientists is two-fold.

                            First, is to continually broaden their understanding of curing in the context of human physiology and metabolism of nitrite and to keep current on the medical literature in this area.
                            The second is to effectively educate a broad community of public health scientists, nutritionists, and the general public about the fundamental role of nitrite in biology in order to address their unfounded fears and concerns about adverse health effects from consuming cured meat and poultry products.
                            In a nutshell: Cure works and doesn't kill you
                            Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
                            Just call me 'One Grind'



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