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Am I the only one disturbed by the Lance Armstrong deal?

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  • #31
    more than 500 passed drug tests.
    What more proof do they want ?

    In this day and age everyone who wins a major sporting event is rushed straight to the dope test room immediately after. If nothing ever showed on the tests - then I don't see what the issue is.

    When jessica ennis won the heptathlon, they were waiting for her in the interview studio for several hours - she'd been stuck with the dope testers all that time.

    Nobody wins without being tested. So if all his tests are clear - how is there even a case ?
    Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
    Just call me 'One Grind'



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    • #32
      transfusions - you can't hide them.
      Fundamentals matter.



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      • #33
        Well I still admire the man. And don't think he did anything dodgy

        What most people don't realise is that steroids don't build muscle all by them selves - all they do is allow you to traiin harder. They let your muscles recover faster so you can work them harder.
        Okay it's illegal - but without the will, talent and dedication in the first place they are completely useless.
        People who take steroids have to train harder than people who don't to get any real benefit from them.

        Well that's nothing, a targeted diet, altitude training, legal supplements and computer aided training schedules don't do either.

        I'm not saying do or don't, just that it's generally a lot of fuss about nothing.

        And yes I still think barry bonds is the second best baseball player of all time.

        First has to be babe ruth for the simple reason he won Pitching awards as well a batting awards. The modern game doesn't really allow for a complete player - but that doesn't diminish what the babe achieved
        And the steroid scandal doesn't diminish what bonds acheived either.
        Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
        Just call me 'One Grind'



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        • #34
          don't think he did anything dodgy
          to paraphrase shakespeare, armstrong is protesting way too much. his over-use of adjectives indicates that he's on the same path as jones was before the truth came out about her.

          having said that - no way to know for sure now, pro or con, because of armostrong's CHOICE.

          rather than go with a bunch of emotional opinions, here are some facts from the source:

          Anti-Doping Chief: Armstrong Knows Truth, Sticking To 'Baseless Soundbites'

          NPR - All Things Considered

          August 24, 2012

          MELISSA BLOCK - Today, they made it official. The United States Anti-Doping Agency or USADA officially stripped cyclist Lance Armstrong of his seven titles in the Tour de France. The agency also issued a lifetime competitive ban on Armstrong. These moves came after Armstrong's decision not to fight doping charges through arbitration. USADA says Armstrong was part of a doping conspiracy going back to 1998.

          And I'm joined by the head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, Tracy Tygart. Welcome to the program.

          TRAVIS TYGART: Thank you for having us.

          BLOCK: Mr. Tygart, you have seen the statement from Lance Armstrong. He calls this whole process Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. He says this is your personal vendetta against him. What do you say to him?

          TYGART: Well, look, you know, those are sort of tried and true PR soundbites that athletes who have been caught cheating with performance-enhancing drugs say about the very people who are just simply here doing our job to protect clean athletes. It's the identical statements, I think, Marion Jones first coined back in '03 about us. Our decisions in every case, whether someone's famous, a celebrity hero like a Lance Armstrong or a Marion Jones, or is anonymous, we base all of our decisions on the evidence and nothing more than the evidence.

          BLOCK: Well, let's talk about the evidence because Lance Armstrong says you have, in his words, zero physical evidence to support what he's calling your outlandish and heinous claims. Help us out here. What is the physical evidence that you have against Lance Armstrong?

          TYGART: Well, we've got a number of people who have come forward who are participants and who eyewitnessed and were direct observers of one of the most sophisticated drug conspiracies that we've ever seen. And this was a U.S. pro cycling team sponsored by the U.S. Postal Service that really put in place a sophisticated and professional program to defeat testing but used these drugs in order to win. We've provided him the notice letter and the charge letter, blood testing data from 2009 and 2010 when he was competing as an elite cyclist that indicates manipulation of his blood.

          BLOCK: Now, when you say it indicates manipulation, are you saying that it wasn't a positive result for something in his blood? Is it something other than that?

          TYGART: Yeah, there's no current test for blood transfusions, so there's no positive test for blood transfusion. But when you look at someone's blood over a period of time, as we presented to him, you can draw - scientifically draw definitive conclusions based on that data. And what we said in our charge letter that he, you know, chose not to contest is that that blood indicated clear manipulation by him, and we had additional, you know, testimony and other evidence to support that.

          BLOCK: You have - your agency has said, Mr. Tygart, that you have more than a dozen eyewitnesses who are prepared to testify against Lance Armstrong about doping. Who are they? What are their names?

          TYGART: You know, we're - we've got three cases that are ongoing, and we'll be doing a findings of fact based on all of the evidence that's in our possession about this conspiracy to provide to UCI. So given, you know, just that legal process that's ongoing with those other cases, we're not in position to reveal that at this stage.

          BLOCK: You mentioned UCI. That's the International Cycling Union.

          TYGART: That's right.

          BLOCK: This question of eyewitnesses is relevant because Lance Armstrong claims that you, USADA, cut them what he calls sweetheart deals in exchange for information against him.

          TYGART: Again, I think what's really important is that Lance Armstrong and all of the people that have been charged - it's not USADA that makes a decision based on the evidence. They have an opportunity to contest whatever evidence we, you know, believe rises to the level to prove that they committed doping, anti-doping rule violations through an established legal process that the federal judge in Austin, Texas, on Monday said was fair and provided full constitutional due process to anyone that's accused and have your day in court. And we'll see what the truth is. And, look, there's the obvious reason why that path wasn't chosen.

          BLOCK: You mentioned the federal judge in Texas who allowed this case to go forward. He also, though, did write this in his ruling. He said: USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping or if it is acting according to less noble motives. And it implied politics and publicity. It's not just Lance Armstrong raising those concerns, it seems.

          TYGART: Well, the judge said all that can be decided when the evidence is presented. I mean, no - you know, the judge was real clear that those weren't issues, and they weren't issues. And we didn't have an opportunity to provide any evidence on, you know, what are the merits of the allegations. And let's have Travis Tygart or the USADA board members take the stand, and we'll tell you what our motives are.

          And our motives are nothing more than to treat every athlete the same and to ensure that future generations of athletes have the hope and the belief that they can compete on a level playing field and don't have to use dangerous performance-enhancing drugs in order to be successful.

          And every parent out there - you know, look, it's a tough day. We don't like these situations either. But on the other hand, it does provide hope that kids in this country who desire and dream about being a professional athlete or an amateur athlete or a high school athlete, that they don't have to use dangerous drugs against the rules in order to be successful.

          BLOCK: Travis Tygart, thank you for talking with us today.

          TYGART: Thanks for your time.

          BLOCK: Travis Tygart is CEO of the United States Anti-Doping Agency, USADA.
          Fundamentals matter.



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          • #35
            He also, though, did write this in his ruling. He said: USADA's conduct raises serious questions about whether its real interest in charging Armstrong is to combat doping or if it is acting according to less noble motives. And it implied politics and publicity. It's not just Lance Armstrong raising those concerns, it seems.
            well, you know, all they have are, you know, allegations and non-conclusive, you know, blood tests.

            And, you know, if one team was doping, then, you know, it'sa safe bet that, you know, most of the others were as, you know, well.

            I have to admit that even in print that guy sounds as suspicious as hell. That speech pattern, you know, indicates nervousness of one kind or another. This is a guy who is used to being interviewed. And his speech patterns are that dodgy ?

            As for transfusions - wasn;t this back in the era when you could do altitude training to build up your red blood cell count and store that blood to be transfused back later before arace at alower altitude. This gives your blood much better oxygen holding abilities.
            I think's the practice has been banned now - but back then it was probably legal and would account for any irregularities in the blood records.

            I'm sticking with witch hunt.
            Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
            Just call me 'One Grind'



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            • #36
              i agree that it could be a witch hunt - tygart's attitude indicates that he's on a mission. but in this case, it sure as hell looks like the witch being hunted really is a witch ~
              Fundamentals matter.



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              • #37
                ll those failed drug tests ... Oh wait there are none. read somewhere that it was 560 +/- tests he PASSED
                Please ignore all spelling errors and typos my pet monkey does all of my corespondence

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                • #38
                  I'm saying witch hunt too.

                  The local soccer stadium is Livestrong Sporting Park...last night on the news they had some doofus out at the soccer stadium interviewing people asking them if they should change the name of the stadium...just looking for dirty laundry...trying to drum up a sensational story. What a sad piece of journalism.

                  Love him or hate him, like cycling or not, Lance Armstrong has used his celebrity for good in combating a horrible and deadly disease. To think that this is now more important to him than trying to combat some kangaroo court that has but one objective to make themselves relevant is easy to understand. I'd a told them to go F themselves too. All of the people that love to see this guy torn down, remember that no one has proven anything...and yet people are so quick to condemn.
                  BBQ Eng.

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                  • #39
                    read somewhere....
                    maybe, but without a link it's hard to tell just how many tests it was.

                    in any case, none of these tests that he may or may not have passed address the issues raised above. tests can be fooled, but when you have a transfusion, it shows. that plus the number of people who were directly involved and were willing to come forward makes a powerful statement.

                    or, maybe he really DID do better than all thsoe people all those times, even though THEY were the ones doping ~ i guess it's technically possible. i guess he should get a pass because, after all, he's done some good things and the rules shouldn't apply to him.
                    Fundamentals matter.



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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
                      maybe, but without a link it's hard to tell just how many tests it was.

                      in any case, none of these tests that he may or may not have passed address the issues raised above. tests can be fooled, but when you have a transfusion, it shows. that plus the number of people who were directly involved and were willing to come forward makes a powerful statement.

                      or, maybe he really DID do better than all thsoe people all those times, even though THEY were the ones doping ~ i guess it's technically possible. i guess he should get a pass because, after all, he's done some good things and the rules shouldn't apply to him.
                      Hey Taz,

                      Here's a link for you...over 4 million results...take your pick.

                      No one is saying that he should get a pass since he has done some good things...I think what we are saying is that he should get a pass until someone can prove that he did something wrong. And yes, it is a fact that that has not happened.
                      BBQ Eng.

                      The "Cow Girls" were adopted from the shelter, and found on petfinder.com.
                      Adopt a homeless pet - http://www.petfinder.com
                      I built the Iron Maiden - Iron Maiden Smoker Build

                      Over 5000 unreadable posts...Photobucket can kiss my ass...they will never get a dime. I will not pay a ransom.

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                      • #41
                        maybe - but then again, people just wishing something doesn't make it so, and a page full of search results that could be anything is proof of nothing. did you even read the article? the guy who is in charge has gone on record with scientific data as well as first-hand testimony - and is willing to go to court to back it up. LA chose to evade the very procedure that would have vindicated him.

                        the thing is, we will never KNOW, will we? and that's by LA's choice - therefore, he is going to have to accept the doubting thomases of the world as part of the consequences of his CHOICE -

                        which is the point i'm trying to make. people can say whatever they want, but when rubber was going to hit the road, he chose to switch off the engine. that's a FACT. this is what he will be remembered for, which is too bad, but it is his choice.
                        Last edited by TasunkaWitko; 08-27-2012, 03:22 PM.
                        Fundamentals matter.



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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
                          maybe - but then again, people just wishing something doesn't make it so.
                          True...at the same time people that want to find him guilty have to accept the fact that he has not been proven guilty of anything...and shouldn't there be the presumption of innocence then? Anyone can make baseless accusations

                          Example -

                          Harry Reid..."someone called me and said Mitt Romney didn't pay taxes"

                          What the Media should have said..."well who is it Harry?"

                          Harry Reid..."Oh, no one."

                          What the Media should have said..."Then STFU with that baseless crap."


                          Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
                          did you even read the article? the guy who is in charge has gone on record with scientific data as well as first-had testimony - and is willing to go to court to back it up. LA chose to evade the very procedure that would have vindicated him.
                          Yes, I read that interview from NPR that you posted (and yes, I believe that they should be defunded). I saw no emperical evidence in that article. Only that he says he has evidence that there are indications...Indications? That is his evidence? What is an indication? I think that irrefutable positives or some other type of hard physical evidence would carry just a bit more weight than indications or hearsay...but maybe that is just me. Make no mistake Taz...there was no scientific evidence presented in that article.

                          The fact that Lance Armstrong said F it, says nothing about his guilt or innocence..it only says he is sick and tired of dealing with this crap that will never go away. I just don't blame him for that.

                          Good discussion BTW...
                          BBQ Eng.

                          The "Cow Girls" were adopted from the shelter, and found on petfinder.com.
                          Adopt a homeless pet - http://www.petfinder.com
                          I built the Iron Maiden - Iron Maiden Smoker Build

                          Over 5000 unreadable posts...Photobucket can kiss my ass...they will never get a dime. I will not pay a ransom.

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                          • #43
                            well, either way, it sure as hell isn't going to chage the fact that i'm barbecuing some some big-ass hunks o'pork this weekend! anyone bringing a side-dish, including lance armstrong, is invited to join in!

                            (in other words - we'll just have to agree to disagree ~)
                            Fundamentals matter.



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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
                              well, either way, it sure as hell isn't going to chage the fact that i'm barbecuing some some big-ass hunks o'pork this weekend! anyone bringing a side-dish, including lance armstrong, is invited to join in!

                              (in other words - we'll just have to agree to disagree ~)
                              You got it Taz...and like I said, good discussion on the topic. I appreciate a bit of verbal jousting from time to time...first round is on me!
                              BBQ Eng.

                              The "Cow Girls" were adopted from the shelter, and found on petfinder.com.
                              Adopt a homeless pet - http://www.petfinder.com
                              I built the Iron Maiden - Iron Maiden Smoker Build

                              Over 5000 unreadable posts...Photobucket can kiss my ass...they will never get a dime. I will not pay a ransom.

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                              • #45
                                no worries, man ~ this is pretty tame (that's a GOOD thing) compared to some of the discussions on the political/current events forums that i normally frequent. it's surprising how many people are in denial of facts, and how willing they can be to ignore truths that are staring them in the face - especially when they have an emotional attachment to the topic of discussion. for example, there are some obamazombies that will move heaven and earth NOT to see the facts, and of course the MSM (NPR included, usually) is all too happy to keep them in occupation of said fantasy world, where the kool-aid flows freely. exactly the reason i usually suggest that folks get their news from at least 4 sources - the more the better.
                                Fundamentals matter.



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