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  • #46
    Originally posted by curious aardvark View Post

    tas - bear in mind that you have a very high tolearance and taste for salty goods.
    I wouldn't call it a tolerance - tolerance implies that I am unaware of the level oof salt, which I am not. I can very easily detect whether something is more or less salty than something else. I can taste something and say, "Well, this is just right for me, but most others would call it too salty." I did not get that perception with this bacon. In my opinion, it was just fine to "normal people" when prepared as it was prepared, but as you said, everyone is different, so someone who is overly-sensitive to it might see a problem.

    With that in mind, the options above should provide effective solutions.
    Fundamentals matter.



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    • #47
      so someone who is overly-sensitive to it might see a problem.
      you mean has a lower tolearance than you :-)
      Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
      Just call me 'One Grind'



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      • #48
        I used a level TBS of Tender Quick, and that also correlates to 1/2 oz (=14 grams) per pound, which seems to be pretty much universal suggested rate. Since this was weighed out, I figured the time in the cure would not matter as it would if you packed this in a salt box and left it to accumulate more and over time. I figured it would equalize at some point. Each slab averaged about 1.5 inches, so had plenty of time to work itself in. Only other thing I can think of for now is that each slice came off the edge, where salt may have accumulated or concentrated. It may mellow out later on if the salt distributes more over time.

        I've also read where the addition of sugar will balance out the harshness of salt, which is another reason for the 2nd rest period with sugar alone.

        But I figure now (today) is my best chance of altering things to move some of the salt out. Once it is dry and smoked, it will pretty much be what it is at that point.

        BTW, this is my 2nd attempt at bacon, and the first also came out with more salt in it than desired. Could be my preference is for less than normal? Not sure what the minimum safe level is but maybe I need to start there next time and move up?

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        • #49
          Originally posted by hog warden View Post
          I used a level TBS of Tender Quick, and that also correlates to 1/2 oz (=14 grams) per pound, which seems to be pretty much universal suggested rate. Since this was weighed out, I figured the time in the cure would not matter as it would if you packed this in a salt box and left it to accumulate more and over time. I figured it would equalize at some point. Each slab averaged about 1.5 inches, so had plenty of time to work itself in. Only other thing I can think of for now is that each slice came off the edge, where salt may have accumulated or concentrated. It may mellow out later on if the salt distributes more over time.

          I've also read where the addition of sugar will balance out the harshness of salt, which is another reason for the 2nd rest period with sugar alone.

          But I figure now (today) is my best chance of altering things to move some of the salt out. Once it is dry and smoked, it will pretty much be what it is at that point.

          BTW, this is my 2nd attempt at bacon, and the first also came out with more salt in it than desired. Could be my preference is for less than normal? Not sure what the minimum safe level is but maybe I need to start there next time and move up?
          With this in mind, I'd suggest an hour soaking, then do the maple sugar for a week, and smoke - after smoking and dry-aging you should be good to go for this batch.

          If it is still too salty after that, then I would definitely cut the amount of TQ by 20% next time, and see how that goes. Just be sure to add a couple of days' worth of curing time before proceeding, to ensure full curing.

          It's all good, and practice makes perfect. Once you get the fundamentals down, it's just a matter of dialing it in to what you like!
          Last edited by TasunkaWitko; 04-13-2015, 03:10 PM.
          Fundamentals matter.



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          • #50
            Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
            With this in mind, I'd suggest an hour soaking, then do the maple sugar for a week, and smoke - after smoking and dry-aging you should be good to go for this batch.

            If it is still too salty after that, then I would definitely cut the amount of TQ by 20% next time, and see how that goes. Just be sure to add a couple of days' worth of curing time before proceeding, to ensure full curing.

            It's all good, and practice makes perfect. Once you get the fundamentals down, it's just a matter of dialing it in to what you like!


            Funny how I've been smoking Bacon & giving much away to a total of about 50 people by now, and in 6 years the only time I ever had any Bacon that had to be soaked to get rid of extra Salt flavor was the time I used "Hi Mountain Cure & Seasoning", and I know they don't use TQ in their packets.


            Bear
            Vietnam Vet---9th Inf. Div. Mekong Delta (1969)
            Easy to follow Step By Steps: Pulled Cured Boston Butt Ham and Buckboard Bacon--Smoked Salmon-- Bacon-On-A-Stick--Bacon (Extra Smokey)--Boneless Cured & Smoked Pork Chops & CB--Canadian Bacon & Dried Beef--Ham Twins (Double Smoked)--Double Smoked Hams X 4--Bear Logs (All Beef--Unstuffed)--Smoked Bear Loaf (All Beef-Mild Hot)--Prime Rib (My Best ever)--Another Prime Rib--Chucky (Pulled Beef)--Twin Chuckies--Pork and Beef Spares--Rare Beef (for Sammies)--Raspberry Chiffon Pie---


            Mom & 4 Cub litter---Potter County, PA:

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            • #51
              Soaked them all about 3 hours. They are now in the fridge, drying out before they get dusted with sugar and then rested a few more days before smoking.

              My guess is they will be fine. If not, will modify things in the future until they are.

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              • #52
                Thanks for reminding me Hog...

                The maple water brined slabs..are excellent. Yes.. the flavor..altho light..is there. I find one should not fry the crap outta it. Firm..yet NOT crispy for maximum flavor.
                In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by hog warden View Post
                  Soaked them all about 3 hours. They are now in the fridge, drying out before they get dusted with sugar and then rested a few more days before smoking.

                  My guess is they will be fine. If not, will modify things in the future until they are.
                  This will probably be alright, but there is a possibliity that it might end up on the sweet side, after adding the sugar. The subtle caramelised maple flavour is meant to balance the salt, and the extended soaking MIGHT throw that balance off a bit.

                  Then again, it might turn out just right! Keep us informed ~

                  Ron
                  Fundamentals matter.



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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by hog warden View Post
                    I used a level TBS of Tender Quick, and that also correlates to 1/2 oz (=14 grams) per pound, which seems to be pretty much universal suggested rate. Since this was weighed out, I figured the time in the cure would not matter as it would if you packed this in a salt box and left it to accumulate more and over time. I figured it would equalize at some point. Each slab averaged about 1.5 inches, so had plenty of time to work itself in. Only other thing I can think of for now is that each slice came off the edge, where salt may have accumulated or concentrated. It may mellow out later on if the salt distributes more over time.

                    I've also read where the addition of sugar will balance out the harshness of salt, which is another reason for the 2nd rest period with sugar alone.

                    But I figure now (today) is my best chance of altering things to move some of the salt out. Once it is dry and smoked, it will pretty much be what it is at that point.

                    BTW, this is my 2nd attempt at bacon, and the first also came out with more salt in it than desired. Could be my preference is for less than normal? Not sure what the minimum safe level is but maybe I need to start there next time and move up?
                    Everyone has different taste buds. Most people are conditioned by processed food companies to expect high levels of salt - and commercial ham and bacon are the worst offenders.

                    So if you think it's too salty - for you. Then it is too salty for you :-)
                    Buy some cure #2.

                    Okay the important thing with making bacon is to have your nitrate levels correct.
                    With cure #2 you need to weigh it and it's such a small amount that it doesn't count as adding salt. But it's the nitrate and nitrite that protect the bacon from bacteria and give it the colour and texture of bacon.
                    The salt is essentially there for flavour and to help moisture removal, so if you use cure #2 and add your own salt - you can have the salt level be ANYTHING YOU LIKE.

                    I don't know exactly what bear and tas have against this method - but they do both seem dead set against it.
                    Given that you can make your bacon as salty or non-salty as you like. Surely it's far more sensible than just using a commercial curing salt that many people think has too much salt in it.
                    Made In England - Fine Tuned By The USA
                    Just call me 'One Grind'



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                    • #55
                      Post deleted by TasunkaWitko....

                      Sorry, mate - but DAMN......
                      Last edited by TasunkaWitko; 04-16-2015, 07:30 AM.
                      Fundamentals matter.



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                      • #56
                        Actually, I think things are working out well.

                        After a day to dry out, I dusted all with some maple sugar and brown sugar and they are back in the fridge resting and contemplating life in the slow lane.

                        I failed to mention it, but rather than grinding the trimmings for sausage, I kept and cured those too and yesterday put them on the smoker for about 4 hours. Pulled those and fried up a few pieces and were OK. Lady I'm married to doesn't pull punches and doesn't take prisoners and if too salty, I'd know about it in a hurry. She thought it was pretty good.......I think her actual words were "this is pretty good and far better than I expected". If this is edible for her, I'm home free. Smoke helped, sugar will help, resting will help. Pretty much need to stick with the established process and this will work out.

                        But just as TAS found with his first effort, this almost has to be a trial and error process to find the "sweet spot" that a person likes. I'm in the process of working on mine.

                        BTW(a), I remember Ritchee just posting how he brined his bacons, but can no longer seem to find it. Curious about his rates of salt, cure and maple. Did he say maple sap or syrup?

                        BTW(b), as to the suggestion of throttling back to 3% salt. If my math is correct, one pound of bacon is equal to 454 grams. If I weighed out 14 grams per pound, that is (14 / 454) = 3.1% salt by weight. If so, that is pretty much the recommended rate to use for Tender Quick.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by TasunkaWitko View Post
                          Not exactly - what we are dead set against is posting something that we created - and that we know works, if procedure is followed - and then having our work become a complete, three-page diatribe about how our method is pure shit - AGAIN AND AGAIN - by someone who has little or no experience with it.

                          The idea of offering an alternate curing method is good, and I said that several times in my opening post. But the knocking of someone else's methods and solutions is not, especially when you know fuck-all about what they are doing. One needs to try it first, before trying to affect the final outcome in the middle of the process. When one goes around "twiddling with the knobs" whilst having no clues about the intended result, it's rather unfair to put down the process, because the process has been altered.

                          If one has helpful comments about using a different curing method to achieve the same end, then by all means, please post it, with instructions, measurements and so on about how using that alternate method worked when applied to this profile. But the snarky side comments and prejudiced, ignorant characterisations get rather boring, after several years of it, EVERY BLOODY TIME.

                          Specifically, Hog Warden encountered an issue in the middle of his attempt at this bacon, and as someone with experience making this profile, I tried to offer several pro-active options for dealing with the method that he is already using now, along with options for the future. I also reminded him that at this point he is in the middle of the process, and that there is still development of the profile that needs to take place, and that the second addition of maple sugar does affect the final outcome. It's called "tweaking the process to fit your desired outcome," in order to do that, you need a base line from which to tweak. This requires patience to follow a method through, an attention span long enough to work the issues out, and the imagination to see solutions rather than just the problem. The last thing that one needs to hear is that they are doing something wrong - when they are not - and that the method they are using is going to result in sub-standard crap - when it won't. It will result in good stuff, and the understanding of the process - having gone through it - will contribute to future improvements. Talk about "processed" or "store-bought results" - we all know that store-bought bacon is far too sweet. This method will result in maple-flavoured bacon WITHOUT the sweetness-overload, if it is followed.

                          If you want to post some ideas for the next attempt, please feel free to do so, but please be so kind as to keep the derogatory comments to yourself. On the other hand, please do feel free to open up a thread about "The Evils of TQ," where you can expound on how awful it is to your heart's content. I promise that I won't go on there and heckle the shit out of you. While you're at it, you might try making this bacon with this flavour profile, using whatever method of curing you wish. Then you might have an idea about the way that the ingredients work together, especially the characteristics of the sugar and how it balances the salt without skewing it over to be too sweet, which is NOT a desired outcome.

                          In short: alternate solutions, good. Persistent insults, bad.


                          AMEN !!

                          Well said---I would have said the exact same thing, but it would have taken longer, because I would have had to do it with one typing finger.

                          Thanks Ron,
                          Bear
                          Vietnam Vet---9th Inf. Div. Mekong Delta (1969)
                          Easy to follow Step By Steps: Pulled Cured Boston Butt Ham and Buckboard Bacon--Smoked Salmon-- Bacon-On-A-Stick--Bacon (Extra Smokey)--Boneless Cured & Smoked Pork Chops & CB--Canadian Bacon & Dried Beef--Ham Twins (Double Smoked)--Double Smoked Hams X 4--Bear Logs (All Beef--Unstuffed)--Smoked Bear Loaf (All Beef-Mild Hot)--Prime Rib (My Best ever)--Another Prime Rib--Chucky (Pulled Beef)--Twin Chuckies--Pork and Beef Spares--Rare Beef (for Sammies)--Raspberry Chiffon Pie---


                          Mom & 4 Cub litter---Potter County, PA:

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                          • #58
                            BTW(b), as to the suggestion of throttling back to 3% salt. If my math is correct, one pound of bacon is equal to 454 grams. If I weighed out 14 grams per pound, that is (14 / 454) = 3.1% salt by weight. If so, that is pretty much the recommended rate to use for Tender Quick.
                            Hi, HW -

                            Your comment above matches my own findings. I did some quick math about 3 months ago, and it seemed to be pretty much the same, with slight differences depending on whether you were using it for ground/thinly-sliced meats, or whole muscle cuts. These differences are related to surface area and the rate of cure, and my observation is that while it takes less TQ to cure these ground and thinly-sliced meats, they tend to come out needing a little ADDITIONAL salt (crazy, I know, but it's true), unless the other ingredients in the product (soy or Worcestershire sauce in jerky, for example) already have a good amount of salt in them.

                            I think what makes bacon "complicated" is that so much of a cut of pork belly is fat. With this meat-to-fat ratio, it seems that the TQ (if used) can be scaled back a bit in order to compensate for the amount of fat - to an amount that is somewhere between the whole-muscle-cut amount (1 tablespoon per pound, by volume) and the amount used for thin-sliced/ground meats (1.5 teaspoons per pound, by volume). Rich had been working with this concept, and that's where he got the 20% reduction for bacon that I referred to above. It is definitely one option.

                            Other options, of course, are to use a different cure entirely, and these are certainly valid options. BriCan, who introduced me to this recipe, uses Cure #1 (at .25% of the weight of the meat) along with salt at 2% of the weight of the meat. Cure #2 is also certainly a good option, especially considering the dry-aging time involved.

                            The thing I like about TQ is that it contains both Cure #1 and Cure #2, and if you use it according to the instructions, it will provide the right amount of these cures, with room to tweak it in either direction where salt is concerned, should your tastes desire (there is a tiny amount of sugar as well, but the amount is so small as to be completely negligible as far as any effect that it has on the product). To use a phrase that MarkR has coined, it's another "tool in the belt" that you can use when curing meats, and if you learn to use it, it can come in handy for many applications.

                            The one flaw with TQ, in my opinion, is that the instructions - even on Morton's website and in their own curing guide - are a little vague in some areas. This leads to mis-applications, mis-understandings and bad experiences, in some cases. But the good news is that, thanks to the observatons, experimentation and experience of many long-time members here, that is not a problem, and the answers can be found very easily.

                            As I said in my opening post, it is certainly not the only way, but it is a good way, with several decades of great results by people who know far less about the process than any of us here.

                            EDIT - in future projects, I will be experimenting with WEIGHING the TQ, rather than measuring it by volume. Eventually, we will see if we can get a chart going for different applications, and a recommended amount of TQ to use for them that results in proper curing balanced with a middle-of-the-road salt profile. Yes, this is a subjective thing, but then again, it will provide a base-line, which is important for anyone who is serious about getting into charcuterie.
                            Last edited by TasunkaWitko; 12-15-2015, 01:13 PM.
                            Fundamentals matter.



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                            • #59
                              Entering the home stretch. Been watching the weather for an opportunity to smoke these and today was it, which was my planned day anyway. Has been pushing 80 the past few days with off and on rain, but today that all blew out and a high pressure system is in place. Temps in the upper 40's now, climbing to maybe 60 at most........low humidity, etc. Nice day for a cold smoke.

                              Plan is for 12 hours of hickory smoke, followed by an evening of cold temp rest, then off to the slicer.

                              Smoker is nothing more than my 55 gallon smoker drum. Not a UDS. Seems to be working perfect.

                              Note to TAS: I have a couple extra bacon hooks if you want em. Send me a PM with address and they will be yours.
                              Attached Files

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                              • #60
                                Looks pretty amazing! Can't wait to see how it turns out!
                                Fundamentals matter.



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