Bone Creep, pull back, Dave an answer

[bbally]

Now, Bob is the quality and density of muscle in an animal (indicative of and how it's raised) also a factor in pullback ? I'd always assumed it was because the muscle fibres shrink when cooked that caused the pullback.

Most definately, finished animals (roughly 250 to 270 punds (USA Pounds)) are what keeps pull back from showing.

But the cut shop is just as important. Trim makes sausage, which allows more money to me made off the carcass. So trimming tight offers sausage yield on top of spare rib yield. Packing houses that trim to close can cause a rack to pull back.

[Whisky Fish]

That is pure crap Whiskey. You need to find a better way of marketing or selling your cattle. Even the certified angus beef folks don't require purebreds. We don't sell much through auction for a lot of reasons, but that would sure be another reason not to. Most of our beef is marketed through local buyers, or marketing assns. that basically act as a middleman, to find us feeders in the midwest that are looking for calves to finish. You are dead right on hybrid vigor, environment, feeding program, etc. contributing far more to the finished product than specific breeding. Enough rant.

I couldn't agree with you more. Some of the bigger operations ship their cattle a thousand miles away to get better prices. But with the amount of animals we typically ship, the transportation eats up any gain in selling price. One thing that's killing us, believe it or not is the shape of our animals ears. Beef master has a larger ear than the angus because of the larger Brama influence and "they" have determined that this is not desireble. The Japenese have gone off the deep end on black cattle and that's all they'll buy. We could start a new thread on this, but I'm afraid it would just be you and I discussing it. And it wasn't a rant, you stated good points.

[bbally]

Don't you sell on contract using video sales? I always hedge my animals protects me from the down side and offers a share in the upside.

We also group together with other producers to create the truckloads. This gets the Monfort guys over from Greeley, Colorado. Buy selling direct to their finishing lots we skip the sale barn losses. Still off downers at the sale, but for the may crop I find the video sale to the finishing lots offers the best ROI.

[Whisky Fish]

Don't you sell on contract using video sales? I always hedge my animals protects me from the down side and offers a share in the upside.

We also group together with other producers to create the truckloads. This gets the Monfort guys over from Greeley, Colorado. Buy selling direct to their finishing lots we skip the sale barn losses. Still off downers at the sale, but for the may crop I find the video sale to the finishing lots offers the best ROI.

I've often thought of doing a co-op thing here and doing just that. Harris ranch is such a monster out here that they dictate prices for most of California. As for the video sales, I am pretty ignorant on that topic, but this has got my curiosity up.

JT

[HawgHeaven]

Awesome thread... thank you Bob for sharing you knowledge with us!

[DDave]

since the early premise of BBQ was cooking the cheaper and tougher cuts of meat to savory goodness and tenderness, it might be a better score altogether if a guy used an inferior cut of beef or pork and it tasted as good or better than the more expensive/higher graded stuff.

I agree with Dan. I think it shows more skill too. I mean I know there are lots of other variables involved, but aren't the Waygu briskets more tender already? How much skill does it take to take a tender piece of beef and turn it in tender after cooking? On a Stoker controlled or pellet-fed smoker that cooks while you sleep??

I think you should get extra points for difficulty if you use regular cuts that folks will find in a supermarket and cook them on a stickburner or at least on something that has to be manually controlled.

Just my opinion.

Dave

[bbally]

but aren't the Waygu briskets more tender already?

That is what the marketing says, personally in blind tests no one can pick out the difference above the control group. So like CAB it is marketing IMO.

How much skill does it take to take a tender piece of beef and turn it in tender after cooking?

Agree that is why I laugh when someone tells me how they improved prime rib. Bullshiiittt it is perfect by nature, you just managed not to ruin what is naturally perfect.

However, I would add again that it does take skill to learn to pick out the cut of meat that produces the most superior product cooked.

So if I see two cuts come through and one has all kinds of jurasic bones sticking out and the other does not. I am going to have to go with the guy who understands enough about what he is making to select the better grade to present.

I go to contests where when you arrive the meat is given to you when you check in, everyone starts with the same cuts of meat at the same time. I like it the best, seperates the skills out real fast.

On a Stoker controlled or pellet-fed smoker that cooks while you sleep??

This is why I write KCBS every single year and explain that these are the same as my two southern pride gasers. Set it and forget it.

I want to test butchery, prep, and pit skills. And to me that means no thermostat controls.

I have requested charcoal and wood burner only events. I have spoken with KCBS about sponsoring one here in Colorado.

I think you should get extra points for difficulty if you use regular cuts that folks will find in a supermarket and cook them on a stickburner or at least on something that has to be manually controlled.

I think it should have to be manually controlled, but I don't want extra points. I want charcoal or wood only with no thermostat controls allowed.

[lcruzen]

[QUOTE=Gunslinger;87468]And I am sure Bob is an awesome chef and pit master, but 40 bucks a plate for anything is too much money.QUOTE]

I certainly question how much of a market there is for $45 a plate BBQ but that said, any knowledge that can be gained in identifying meat quality is an asset. This a great thread and may help some of us question our past beliefs and practices. For example there certainly those who question the "low and slow" methods that traditional BBQ is identified with.

[erain]

dang it rich..... and you told me pullback was a good thing!!! jk lol. very interesting thread bob!!! i guess we have to make out of this what we can... i am sure there is a high end clientel that will pay big bux for a plate of Q, and there is prbly a larger group not gonna pay that kind of dollars to eat. that said i think the message is this... when you go to the market, spend some time looking threw the meat and try and identify the best looking pieces. and i guess if not sure be observant of the charicteristics and what the end results are and look accordingly next time. i always thought i paid alot of attention when i bought but this probly gonna take it to a new level. thks bob

[Gunslinger]

I certainly question how much of a market there is for $45 a plate BBQ but that said, any knowledge that can be gained in identifying meat quality is an asset. This a great thread and may help some of us question our past beliefs and practices. For example there certainly those who question the "low and slow" methods that traditional BBQ is identified with.

I absolutely agree with you.

But back to the pull back discussion. Bob what the hell would I use as a handle to hold my ribs by if there is no pullback?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned here is in defense of the pull back. Rather or not your meat selection skills are good, at least with pull back, you can almost guarantee the ribs are going to be tender. And as far as KCBS judging goes, if that's what they look for, then why argue with it. At the end of the day, it's taste and texture that matters most and I guess ribs that have "good pull back" are universally considered as appealing to the eye.

[gmotoman]

Ok Thanks DDave for getting me here, and thank you bbally for the lesson. This helps me a lot, and most of it makes pretty good common sense.

[DangerDan]

Great post Mr. B!

I really need to spend more time reading this site! I usually find the top layer of BBs at the packing house a bit older and dryer than the lower layers in the display case. I'm a regular customer so I usually get to hand pick my racks. The quality of pork at the packing house I use is usually pretty good. A little lean for my taste but that seems to be the norm in the pork industry these days.

I have a question though. I do fine picking my ribs by visual and don't want to foil them in a cook. This is where I see whether the quality of meat is good or not. If I have to foil them to finish I figure they're a bit lower in quality in my book.

Any truth to this?
BTW, for a great informative post.

[Mark R]

Ok so when do we start making appointments to go through s meat market with you? JK. Great thread Bob, and I think I understand "better". From the pork ratings being based on expected yield - means less fat in the muscle and more firm muscle (less fat to render out=more yield). Like holding two butts, you want the firm one - not the mushy one. With exterior fat cap not fatty meat. ......right?

[Scarbelly]

What an amazing thread. I have read this a couple of times and just keep sayin wow. Thanks to everyone for their contribuitions

[SMOKE FREAK]

Definately some great info here...
But in my case I kinda dont have too much choice in the ribs I get...So Ill smoke what I can get...Well, Ill smoke natural unenhanced ribs or I wont smoke ribs at all...So if I have some bone creep then Ill just have to live with it...In fact when I dont have some bone creep it usually means I didnt get the damned things done again...

I guess I wont be selling my Q for 45 bucks a plate