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Danger Zone - Low & Slow in the danger zone too long?

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  • Danger Zone - Low & Slow in the danger zone too long?

    Hello, All

    New to the formum - so if I step on any etiquette, just blame it on being a FNG.

    Can someone clarify a Danger Zone question I have.

    The Danger Zone is defined as 4 hours from "kill to cooked", in:
    The temperature range in which foodborne bacteria can grow is known as the danger zone. This is typically considered to be between 40°F (4.4°C) and 140°F (60°C)[1], though often 45°F (7.2°C) is considered the lower temperature of the range[2]. According to the 2005 FDA Food Code, the danger zone is defined as 41°F - 135°F (5°C - 57°C). Potentially hazardous food

    I noticed on a 8 LB boston butt (during a smoke) that the internal meat temperature stayed in the danger zone almost too long. I pinned the temp at 225 for the length of the smoke

    Does anyone start the initial smoking at a higher temp - in an effort to raise the meat out of the Danger Zone faster? (then back down to "finish" the meat at 225?)

    Thank you very much, Carl G.

    (I asked another forum I belong to, and got a response of "I ain't never made no one sick yet"... I'm not sure I want to take that chance.)
    Weber Smokey Joe
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  • #2
    depending on the size & cut of meat i do that- i.e. brisket,butts,poultry.
    it's also safer to let your meats(except poultry) come to room temp before placing on the pit.
    in my opinion as long as you take a meat to it's prescribed smoking temp it should be ok.
    i hope that answered your question.
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    • #3
      well since I learned so much here.
      I will give it a shot.the others will step in and help me / correct me. are try and cornfuse the heck out of ya.

      when doing a smoke on lets say a pork butt. and smoking in the 235 - 250 range. and and internal temp probe inserted in to the meat abot 3-4 hours into the smoke. the temps will of course start to rise, then it hits what they call a plateau I have always (in my four butts I have done)seen the temp stops rising in the 140 area. and it can hang there up to four hours.( what it is doing , is breaking down tissue and making the meat soft) then it will break out and start to climb. I am looking for it to hit 160-165 then I foil her and stick it back on (or put it in the oven at 250) and look for it to hit 200-205. the put it to rest for several hours wrapped in a towel and sniggled in an ice chest. then bring it out and pull the meat.
      now as for a harmfull growth? I imagine there might be.But it dies there after into the smoke.(Richtee, Capt Dan this is your Q)
      are inside the meat there has been no contamination (hence sticking the probe in 4 hours into the smoke) and the heat that will let germs grow can't because of safe cooking practice.
      I hope some one else steps in..then I might be able to be more helpfull at a later date.
      good question for so early in the morning.
      sigpicWal-Mart shopping cart undergoing heavy mods.
      nano second fast camo titanium splash proof thermo pen


      need a larger spatula for early morning road kill removal.

      As the venomous south American hissing skunk rat is growing fast and needs larger portions.

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      • #4
        Welcome to the forum!!

        I would recommend that you use whatever temp you think you need to be certain that your food remains safe to eat.
        A lot of people end up with good results smoking at temps quite higher than 225. If your smoker is stalling your butts in the danger zone, and your uncomfortable with this, then raise that temp!!
        Keith

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        • #5
          Welcome to the forum. Be sure to go to roll call to tell us a little bit about yourself and what you smoke with. We like to be nosy, and it helps us answer your question better sometimes.

          You mentioned that it "was almost too long". Almost too long is as good as you need to be safe. So if that's the case, you're good at 225. You can go higher if you would like to speed that up- I haven't found any issue with going to 250 with a butt.

          Did you measure your 4 hrs from taking it out of the fridge? You don't need to start the clock until around 40 degrees or so. I generally leave my non-bird meats sit out for the half to full hour it takes to get the smoker temps up and that generally leaves me around 40 or a bit higher by then (I keep my refrigerator at about 35- gotta' have that milk cold before you add the strawberry quick to it! ) Even my birds get up to about that temp after they've been washed down and the last rubs added to them.

          Kyote's comment about not putting the probe into the meat until after about 4 hours is a good one. You're not introducing any bacteria into the center of the meat that way and that gives you slightly more leeway with temps. You can also wipe the probe with a sanitizing towelette if you still want to do it at the beginning. That will help, but you still introduce a chance for bacteria to enter if you didn't get every spot good. I personally wait for about 4 hours (3 if I just can't stand it anymore!) and also wipe them down before inserting. Always best to be as clean and sterile as you can be is my motto.

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          • #6
            Hopefully our resident food safety expert, bbally will chime in soon. But in the meantime here is a quote from bbally that I saw on another forum.

            Originally posted by bbally
            Unpunctured, intact muscle need only have the outside 0.5 inch pass through 140 degrees within 4 hours. Something easily done at temps of 200 F or more.

            Now if you inject it, you have changed the "intact nature" of the meat and should treat it as ground meat or forced meat. This means the inside temp of the meat must pass through 140 within four hours. Usually requiring a temp of at least 275 F or better.

            Going under 200 F without intact muscle generally requires that another method of cooking have been used.... Nitrate or Nitrite curing being most common. But lemon and lime juice under a method called ceviche also will do the job, though generally limited to fish.

            Most common error that results in hospitalization of people consuming improperly handled intact muscle?

            "inserting a temp probe into the intact muscle prior to the outside being above 140F or the probe not being wiped with sterilizer prior to insertion."<!-- / message -->
            Hope this helps.

            Originally posted by Fat_Head_Carl View Post
            (I asked another forum I belong to, and got a response of "I ain't never made no one sick yet"... I'm not sure I want to take that chance.)
            Yes, I've heard that answer on quite a lot of things. Not very confidence inspiring, is it. All I can say is I hope they have good luck with that.

            Dave
            Last edited by DDave; 06-17-2009, 06:49 PM.
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            • #7
              Everyone -

              This is all good info. I especially like not inserting the meat probe into the meat until ~4 hours into the smoke - makes total sense.

              Thank you very much for making my inaugural post a good experience.

              Warmest regards, Fat Head Carl
              Weber Smokey Joe
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              Big Green Egg XL with iQue 110
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              • #8
                Welcome to Smoked-Meat!...And DDave's post quoting BBally is dead nuts correct.
                In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                • #9
                  Good stuff! Its been awhile since this has been discussed. I think its perfect timing. Thanks Carl for the question.
                  Great answers guys, and its nice to see these basic safety issues are becoming first hand knowledge in everyones minds.
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                  • #10
                    The only differences I've found between smoking at 225* and 250* is a MUCH shorter smoking time at 250* and the fact that the dreaded plateau didn't seem to last as long.

                    A simple 25* difference in temperature seemed to take about 2 hours off a butt smoke. So instead of 10-12 hours, I'm getting them done in about 8-9 hours.
                    Chris
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                    • #11
                      well, there we have it..thanks DDave for steppin in. heck there it was as a sticky..but who reads saftey stuff.lol.

                      fatheadcarl I hope these fine folks were a big help to you..what Info I was able to convey was given to me by all the others that posted here.


                      I wrote a rather lengthy letter to the FDA food safety branch about this. included all our post on this subject, and a hot link to this topic.
                      and invited them to please come and share any info they have on this matter to us.

                      shall see. so keep it clean I guess now we need a sanitary smiley.lol..
                      sigpicWal-Mart shopping cart undergoing heavy mods.
                      nano second fast camo titanium splash proof thermo pen


                      need a larger spatula for early morning road kill removal.

                      As the venomous south American hissing skunk rat is growing fast and needs larger portions.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        well, everyone knows i am going against prob whats been said here..........

                        i pierce my meat all the time when i put the meat on......been doing it for., oh, bout 10 years....................

                        been smoking for over thirty years with a old reg. ECB...........back when remote digi's weren't around.........hell didn't even start checking internals till bout 10 years ago............

                        still kicking it

                        just like the ones that inVENTED smoking..........doubt they worried bout a danger zone..........

                        i always wait till smoker is at least 180 before i put meat in, only cause i am impatient.........sometimes i wait till 225 before sticking meat in........


                        but i also don't use cure in my jerky............THAT ones for you Rich..........


                        let us not cry because we lost someone, but let us smile because we enjoyed their company for what time was allowed us!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kyote View Post


                          I wrote a rather lengthy letter to the FDA food safety branch about this. ..

                          I'm sure Rich will be pleased to see the Feds poking around.
                          Keith

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Walking Dude View Post
                            but i also don't use cure in my jerky............THAT ones for you Rich..........
                            We been thru this too many times. I shall not be baited. You know my position on this, and you are welcomed to yours. You live far enough away any plagues you may start should not make it this far
                            In God I trust- All others pay cash...
                            Check out the Mad Hunky and products at https://madhunkymeats.com or https://www.facebook.com/MadHunkyMeats
                            Lang 60D, The Beast, 18 and 22 WSM, Brinkmann Backroads trailer, Weber 22 Kettle, gutted MB burning watts

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                            • #15
                              I hate to say it but I am there with WD. I think we have gotten way too sterile in this country.
                              Some of the people I know who are sick the most often are the cleanest people I know.
                              Although erring on the side of caution is good , I feel it goes too far at times. Just be smart in how you handle your food and getting it into the smoker introduces it to a low oxygen, high heat environment. Both are not good for bacterial development. The salting also hurts bacterial development.
                              "I'm the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the bastards are going."
                              PFC Martin, 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, Battle of the Buldge

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