Poultry and safe cooking temperatures

[Mark R]

We've been told forever to cook poultry to 165°. That's because at 165° the bacteria are killed (sterilized) instantly. And for simplicity and safety the USDA just recommends all poultry be cooked to 165° expecting the poultry to go straight from the heat to the plate or eaten immediately.
But it turns out the USDA actually has a safe time and temp chart for sterilization.
From the USDA's guide to obtaining a 7.0 log10 relative reduction in salmonella in chicken. (sterilization)

Note the 10% fat content, the fat content does change the cooking time. It's in the charts below.

Here is a link for both chicken and beef safe cooking temp charts.
http://www.fsis.usda.gov/wps/wcm/con...df?MOD=AJPERES

So what does that mean for smoking or grilling poultry, not much - you still need to reach 165° to be safe. Unless you can Sous Vide first.

Sausage - same rules.....unless you Sous Vide.

Butt if you can cook Sous Vide, cooking (depending on thickness) for 2.5 hours at 140° is safe. Then you can sear it on the grill! Or smoke it! And it's not cooked to a consistency of rubber biscuit, tender moist chicken.

Yes it's on the chart, it is time at a certain temperature.

This also means that you can pasteurize eggs (in shell) at 140°, not cooking the egg. That means you can safely make raw egg sauces (Hollandaise, Bearnaise & Caesar dressing etc.)

This is making me hungry!

Oh, one more thing the magic temperature for killing Salmonella, C. Bott and Campylobacter (chicken liver) are relatively the same 137°F. So they say 140° for a margin of safety.

Ok, let the sniping begin.

[Ryan]

Thanks Mark! Man I need some more time to research this sous vide more, mines been just sitting collecting dust. I wonder what the texture is like on chicken that is cooked to 140?

[Mark R]

Thanks Mark! Man I need some more time to research this sous vide more, mines been just sitting collecting dust. I wonder what the texture is like on chicken that is cooked to 140?

Actually I cook it at 150 but very nice, smooth, tender and more flavor. Biggest difference very moist breast. It also gives the chicken a different texture, in a good way. I think because it is being cooked "more gently".

[dcarch]

-------- I wonder what the texture is like on chicken that is cooked to 140?

It will be a little bloody pink, which bothers many people, but safe to eat.

dcarch

[Ryan]

It will be a little bloody pink, which bothers many people, but safe to eat.

dcarch

I figured it might be. That would bother my wife. Which then would bother me cause all I'd be hearing is "are you sure its done, I don't think it is"

[Mark R]

I figured it might be. That would bother my wife. Which then would bother me cause all I'd be hearing is "are you sure its done, I don't think it is"

So take it a little higher, as I said I cook at 150°, then finish on a grill. Might take a little experimenting but you can always cook it a bit more on the grill if you need to.

[Ryan]

So take it a little higher, as I said I cook at 150°, then finish on a grill. Might take a little experimenting but you can always cook it a bit more on the grill if you need to.

Definitely will, bought 20 pounds of wings yesterday and got ten pounds for the sous vide experiment.

[Mark R]

Definitely will, bought 20 pounds of wings yesterday and got ten pounds for the sous vide experiment.

You will never go back! The texture and taste is.....

[DDave]

Great info, Mark.

I found that chicken breasts seem a lot more moist and tender when I started using the Thermapen to actually temp it instead of guessing. I must have really been overcooking the hell out of it before then.

So what does that mean for smoking or grilling poultry, not much - you still need to reach 165° to be safe. Unless you can Sous Vide first.

Why would you need to sous vide? Wouldn't it be considered safe 3 minutes (2.7 on the chart) after hitting 150° IT?

Dave

[Mark R]

Great info, Mark.

I found that chicken breasts seem a lot more moist and tender when I started using the Thermapen to actually temp it instead of guessing. I must have really been overcooking the hell out of it before then.



Why would you need to sous vide? Wouldn't it be considered safe 3 minutes (2.7 on the chart) after hitting 150° IT?

Dave

Nope, doesn't work that way! See my comment below.

[Mark R]

Nope

Actually what I posted and deleted is wrong. The reason Sous Vide works like this is that the product is immersed in a consistent temp fluid so there is no chance of any part of the product not getting to temp over the time required.

Simply put this applies to Sous Vide only. It does not apply to cooking on a grill or smoker!

[gonefishin]

Actually what I posted and deleted is wrong. The reason Sous Vide works like this is that the product is immersed in a consistent temp fluid so there is no chance of any part of the product not getting to temp over the time required.

Simply put this applies to Sous Vide only. It does not apply to cooking on a grill or smoker!

My understanding is that cooking chicken to a low internal temperature can only be done if you sustain that low internal temperature for a duration of time.

In your chicken example, the internal temperature of the chicken needs to hit 140f and you need to sustain that target temperature for 35 minutes to be safe.

When these internal target temperatures are sought after in high heat forms of cooking, such as grilling, baking, etc, the cooking temperatures are much higher than 140f...once the meat reaches the 140f target...the higher cooking environment keeps raising the internal temperature of the chicken.

It's impossible to hold an internal temperature of 140f when your cooking environment is 325f...you'll blow right past the 140f, unable to sustain these temperatures for 35 minutes. Thus the 165f internal recommendation for high heat cooking methods.



holding a raw egg at 130f for a few hours will effectively sterilize it, yet keep all parts of the egg indistinguishable from raw. 140f should get you loose whites and indistinguishable (from raw) yolks.

Are you seeing different results? how long are you bathing the eggs for?

[Mark R]

My understanding is that cooking chicken to a low internal temperature can only be done if you sustain that low internal temperature for a duration of time.

In your chicken example, the internal temperature of the chicken needs to hit 140f and you need to sustain that target temperature for 35 minutes to be safe.

When these internal target temperatures are sought after in high heat forms of cooking, such as grilling, baking, etc, the cooking temperatures are much higher than 140f...once the meat reaches the 140f target...the higher cooking environment keeps raising the internal temperature of the chicken.

It's impossible to hold an internal temperature of 140f when your cooking environment is 325f...you'll blow right past the 140f, unable to sustain these temperatures for 35 minutes. Thus the 165f internal recommendation for high heat cooking methods.



holding a raw egg at 130f for a few hours will effectively sterilize it, yet keep all parts of the egg indistinguishable from raw. 140f should get you loose whites and indistinguishable (from raw) yolks.

Are you seeing different results? how long are you bathing the eggs for?

That is correct. Ummm the 130° part is how they/you "pasteurize" an egg(s).
My point was specifically for someone thinking of grilling chicken at a lower temp for a longer time, it doesn't work that way. The saturation of temp immersed in a fluid (H2O), is far more consistent and penetrating than anything cooked in air (grille).

[Fishawn]

Great info, Mark.

I found that chicken breasts seem a lot more moist and tender when I started using the Thermapen to actually temp it instead of guessing. I must have really been overcooking the hell out of it before then.



Why would you need to sous vide? Wouldn't it be considered safe 3 minutes (2.7 on the chart) after hitting 150° IT?

Dave

X2 on the Thermapen Dave, never a dried oot breast anymore. That said the SV process is intriguing for sure.

Good stuff on the temps Mark

[gonefishin]

this is why I mentioned it...

This also means that you can pasteurize eggs (in shell) at 140°, not cooking the egg. That means you can safely make raw egg sauces (Hollandaise, Bearnaise & Caesar dressing etc.)

140f should get you loose whites and indistinguishable (from raw) yolks.

That is correct. Ummm the 130° part is how they/you "pasteurize" an egg(s).
My point was specifically for someone thinking of grilling chicken at a lower temp for a longer time, it doesn't work that way. The saturation of temp immersed in a fluid (H2O), is far more consistent and penetrating than anything cooked in air (grille).

here too...

Butt if you can cook Sous Vide, cooking (depending on thickness) for 2.5 hours at 140° is safe. Then you can sear it on the grill! Or smoke it! And it's not cooked to a consistency of rubber biscuit, tender moist chicken.

Where did you get the 2.5 hours (@140f)? I'm just wondering because it's quite a bit different from the 35 minutes (@140f) I've found elsewhere.